What's the Future of Hybrid Worship?

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Bryan Haley

Now that most churches have enabled some form of online church, what's next? How can a church look long-term and embrace both online and in-person worship?

Show Notes

Episode summary

Now that most churches have enabled some form of online church, what's next? How can a church look long-term and embrace both online and in-person worship—and what does that even look like? We talk with Jason Moore, author and church consultant, about the future of hybrid church and how your ministry can benefit from embracing this new normal.

Mentioned in this episode

Transcript

Jeanette:

Churches have come a long way since the early days of 2020. Now many churches see the need for both physical ministry and online ministry, but what's the future of ministry look like? Is maintaining hybrid worship a good thing?

Bryan:

Hey, friends, welcome to the Church Juice Podcast. Whatever your title or role is, our hope is that you realize communication is vital to success. And that's probably why you're here. I'm Bryan Haley and I'm joined as always by my co-host Jeanette Yates. And we're here energizing church communications.

Jeanette:

Yes, we are. We are here doing that. And I am so excited today to be welcoming Jason Moore on the podcast with us. Hey Jason.

Jason:

Hey there. Good to be with you.

Jeanette:

Yeah, I'm excited to have you. I'm going to do a little introduction here, I've studied up, but then I might also have you share whatever I've missed because you've got lots going on. You've been doing work with churches and church worship design and guest experience. You have over two decades of training, coaching, and consulting. And one of the things I really love, Jason, is that you work with churches of all styles, sizes, means, but in 2020, Jason shifted focus and he started creating a series of groundbreaking webinars on hybrid worship design. And in his latest book, Both/And: Maximizing Hybrid Worship Experience for In-Person and Online Engagement, is a culmination of that work. Did I get that right, Jason?

Jason:

You did. I think some people think I just came out from under a rock and took advantage of this incredible opportunity, but it really all has added up to this moment. And I do a lot of work in the United Methodist Church. Someone said you are our Esther for such a time as this, you were created for this moment, which in some ways has felt like that. I got my start in ministry 20 some odd years ago, more than 20 years ago, back in 97 actually at a large Methodist church, that was a megachurch at the time. I was a kid that from about third grade on knew that I wanted to be an artist when I grew up, didn't know exactly what that meant, but had the ability to draw and paint and fairly photorealistic and things. And so I spent my whole young adult life, my childhood and young adult life thinking I'm going to be an artist when I grow up.

And then in the year between my junior high and high school year, I went on a retreat and heard God call me to ministries as close as I've ever heard the audible voice of God. And I thought, how can you be an artist in ministry, that's not possible? So I thought I'd have to be a youth pastor that designed t-shirts on the side or something. I went to art school, commercial art school. And while I was there, I was playing in a band. And one night I was telling the band that I didn't take my regular job at the parks department over the summer while I was in college. But my church offered me the opportunity to be a paid intern for the youth group. And so I was trying to make it on a very low youth group salary and freelance artwork. And I wasn't getting very many jobs. And so, one night at band practice, I was playing in this Christian band. I said, guys, can you pray for me? And they said, well, our church uses graphic artists.

So a guy from the church called, I'm sorry, a guy from the band called the church, set up an interview for me, that was the church that I'm referring to. And the rest is history. We were known nationally, CBS came and did a story on us. And my work was featured in WIRED Magazine and things like that around creative stuff, media, digital, although some of it was analog back then. It's that long ago. And so anyway, 20 years later, I've done a lot of work around collaborative worship design and hospitality, or first impressions. When the pandemic hit, like everyone. And for me, it wasn't this brilliant shift. God just dropped it in my lap that there was this opportunity to help churches navigate this time.

So I had this very panicked moment in 2020, second week of March or whatever. I had six events that I was supposed to go speak at all canceled on me. Of course, there was this thing called coronavirus or something we weren't sure. And the funny thing is, is they were all like, we'll have you come in the fall when this is all over right. Fall has not, it's just barely here now.

Jeanette:

It's still March 2020 in a lot of places.

Jason:

Yes. Yes. What ended up happening was that a church that I had done a secret worship for consultation for back in August, of 2019 in Denver, the pastor called me and said, we implemented all the stuff that you told us to do when you came to be with us. And most of that was focused on the building. How can we bring that to what we're doing online? Would you do a secret worship for consultation for our online service? And I was like, sure, quite frankly, I had nothing else going on. So yes, I would be happy to do that. I took two pages of notes called him on, this was the second week that the world had shut down. So I worshiped with them in real-time on that Sunday, Monday or Tuesday or whatever, I scheduled a Zoom call, which even Zoom. It's funny to think now we all spend so much time on Zoom, but even Zoom was something that I used a little bit in my business now and then, but was not like... I had the free account, I didn't use it very often.

And now all of a sudden we're living on Zoom. So his team and I got together, I shared all my feedback. And afterwards I said, his name's Jeremy. I said, Jeremy, man, so much of what I just shared with you, every church needs to hear, because we're all stuck online now. And he was online prior to, but recognized that a shift had to happen because everyone was at home. I said, do you care if I turn this into a little article? And I just posted five things to improve your stream before next Sunday. And that went viral, started getting passed around everywhere. And I started getting requests. In fact, the day after, I got a request, can you turn that into a webinar?

And the funny thing is I was like, I've never done a webinar. I've done lots of in-person things, but I've appeared on some webinars that someone else was doing. So I spent a week and a half exploring how do you do a webinar? And found Zoom was a good option and discovered Ecamm Live, which is what I use that allows me to lay graphics over top and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, I finished a development the next day after, so day three after the article came out, another group called me and said, hey, we saw that article, will you turn it into a training? Within five days, 14 different United Methodist groups, organizations all over the country asked me if I could do this training.

And it ended up growing and growing and growing. And then in the fall, I started to get concerned about what happens when we come back to the building, because it's different when you do it for people all at home. There's an ecumenical organization that had hosted my training a couple times. And I was talking to them about doing a different training on my book that had come out right at the beginning of the pandemic. By the way, don't ever release a book in April, of 2020, not a good thing. That book really never found its audience because of the pandemic. But I was talking to him about developing that. He said, how's it going with your... The first training I did was called telling the old story in a new time. He said, how's that going? And I said, man, it's going great. But I'm so worried about what happens when we come back. Shared about three thoughts and I offhandedly said, we've got to figure out how to do this in a both and kind way. That was the first time it had ever come out of my mouth.

And he was like, I want a training on that. I'll book two of them right now for November. And I had to figure out what that meant. So I know that was a long intro, but that's how we got to here, where I started doing work. And I've done that training now about 90 times since.

Jeanette:

I was going to say, it's got to be close to a hundred.

Jason:

Yeah. And with that particular training, I did a 30 day follow-up after the training. So I would do the training and then 30 days later, everyone would come back on Zoom. And so I've actually done about twice that amount, as far as... I think last year I did a 157 online webinars, which is crazy. Prior to that I would do about 30 or 35, 40 speaking engagements a year. And so it's tripled since then. So it's been crazy.

Jeanette:

You're talking about this, both and, which I actually, it's probably my favorite way to refer to this concept of hybrid worship. It discusses, in your book specifically, you're talking about maximizing the potential of the worship experience for both in person and online. And I'd love for you to dive in a little bit and talk about why this is so important and how the pandemic may have changed this idea of having an online version of your service.

Jason:

I think that some of us have been using the word hybrid and it's not truly hybrid. I think there's a difference between creating a hybrid experience and just putting a camera in the back of the room and broadcasting what's happening in the room. That's really creating an experience for the room that the people at home can watch versus an experience where they're actually participants. In fact, I talk about in the book three words that I'd love to eliminate from our vocabulary. I do not like the term virtual worship. Virtual is simulated, virtual reality headsets. You're not really there. You're just experiencing a close approximation of it. And I think of worship online, if we do the work of reimagining it, is an actual worship experience. It's not virtual.

The second thing, second word for me that I really just do not like to hear in worship is watching worship. Sometimes we'll say, if you're watching at home, we're so glad you're here today. Let's hope that they're worshiping at home and let's leave room for them to actually be participants in it, which leads to a third word that I don't love so much, and that is that some of us call people at home viewers and we don't want viewers, we want participants. And the only way you can be a participant is for us to say, hey, put in the chat this, or text in your prayer today, or whatever it might be so that they're actual participants. The way that I have tried to frame the conversation in the book and in the trainings is to think about the shift that has to happen when you tell a story in a different way.

So I talk about going from book to film, we've all seen films that started as books, and most of us don't really like the film as much as we like the book, because the book is the more complete version of the story and all of that. And I think that worship online can feel like a cheap version of the in-person experience if we don't really do the work of reimagining. Now, there are some films that are actually better than the book, it's rare. Talk about in the book, I did a little research and found this great article that talked about apparently Forrest Gump was a terrible book, but it was an incredible film. Jurassic Park is one that they often say that the Michael Criton book was good, but the film was even better. Some argue Charlie, in the Chocolate Factory, there are a few books out there that were reimagined in such a powerful way.

The deepest part of your question that needs to be answered is why should we do this? Well, there are some people who will never go to the bookstore. There are some people who will never go to the library and check a book out. But when a book becomes a film, that story is opened up to so many more people. And the truth is there are a lot of people that will never walk into a church building. They don't feel comfortable there, but they can accidentally end up in worship through someone's timeline. Someone who's sharing that worship with friends who maybe have no faith background or whatever. I guess the last thought I have is that I start the book off by quoting the great commission that we are to take the gospel to people everywhere, baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. It's a little harder to figure out the whole baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy spirit online. I'm not sure exactly how you do that quite yet, but we are taking the gospel to people everywhere.

And geography doesn't really matter, and even time doesn't matter in the way that it did pre-pandemic. Worship happened at a certain time, at a certain place. And if you weren't at that place at a certain time, you missed it. And now you can worship later from anywhere. I think it's a pretty incredible and wonderful opportunity. So for churches that are leaning in, I think there's some real resurgence that can happen in the church through our hybrid ministry if we will actually do the work of reimagining what the experience looks like for truly hybrid worship and not just broadcast what's in the building.

Bryan:

Yeah. I'd like to dig into that idea a little bit more too, because you just touched on this a little bit. We want people to be involved and engaged in an actual participant in the online worship, not just a passive viewer.

Jason:

Yes.

Bryan:

But there are some key differences and you talk about this in your book. There are some key differences in the way that people worship online and from the way that people worship in-person, for example, the way that people worship through music, through singing, in-person you can sing four or five songs and people will sing along with you, but at home it tends to not be the case. So how do you-.

Jeanette:

I was going to say only because they have to.

Bryan:

Or they often will... When we were at home, we watched it, or we sat there and hummed along, but it's not the same.

Jason:

Yes.

Bryan:

So how do you, I guess, reconcile these two short versus long, those kinds of things? How do you reconcile those differences?

Jason:

I think it's an important question. Music is an act of worship. Singing is an act of worship. And I don't think we should leave it out, but I do think that we have to consolidate the music portion of worship for people online. Part of what I did in every single training was ask some questions around participation and I would guesstimate that about 80 or 90% of the people who have come to my webinars have said that we don't really sing at home. I mentioned to you a moment ago that I was originally in a band. I play guitar. I've done a lot of worship leading myself. And so I'm a musician, but I often don't sing in my living room in the way that I do in the room. In fact, it's the time of worship where I have the hardest time keeping my kids, my 13 and 16 year old, in front of the TV. I think we're a little self-conscious about singing around our siblings or our parents or whatever.

Am I saying we should eliminate it? No, but I do think that we might sing less songs. I think we might consolidate instead of singing all five for a traditional church, all five versus the hymn, we might sing one or two of those. I talk about in the book, three forms of what I call both and worship. I call it pre-both and worship, real-time both and worship, and post-both and worship. Pre is the idea that you'd pre=record your online experience of worship, which really does give you the opportunity to maybe do one or two songs, have a shorter sermon, create a full experience of worship, but that lasts about 35 or 40 minutes tops. 25 to 35 minutes might even be a sweeter sweet spot. Real-time is the idea that we would stream real time. So it's live streaming.

And I even talk about there, how you can do two different models. One would be to do what I call the staggered approach, where you might start your online worship 10 minutes after your in-person worship. And so a lot of what you're going to cut out is singing because people aren't singing at home the same way, and you might even get all the way to the sermon and then dismiss people or say, if you're worshiping online, thanks for coming today. You're welcome to hang around as long as you'd like, but we're going to do a few more things before we finish up today. And you'd say it more artfully worded than that. You have an opportunity to say goodbye to them, because a lot of people are not going to hang around online after the sermon in the same way they would in the room.

And then I talk about an approach that I call split the difference, which is basically where you would... Nona Jones. I'm sure you're familiar with Nona. Nona is a great leader, author. Works for Meta, or Facebook these days, is also a pastor. She recommends 40 minutes or less for online worship. After looking at the data at Facebook, if 40 minutes is the threshold and a lot of us do worship that's an hour or whatever, maybe you split the difference and you do a 50 minute worship rather than the full deal. I like the first approach better than the second approach. I think that when you compromise the time for everyone, people in the room don't want a truncated version. They put clothes on today, they're not their PJs. They want the full experience.

And then the third option that I talk about is what I call post-both and worship. And that's the idea that you would record what you do on Sunday morning live for the room while it's happening, but not broadcast it. So if you're in a church that has no internet or slow or no technology, or really poor technology, you can do this, but then you might take one or two of the songs, you might take not every element, but you'd create more of a curated experience of that worship and upload it at a later time. So many people are now worshiping after the fact not live on Sunday. In fact, I talk about one church in the book that it's a small little church. I always say their name will tell you everything you need to know about them. Farmersville United Methodist Church here in Ohio does a 9:00 AM service that they record, about 9:45, 9:50 when it's over, they immediately pull the file, take out a couple songs, the sermon, a couple things they recorded earlier in the week, upload it. And it's online by 11 o'clock.

So you can either go to their nine in-person or you can worship with them online at 11. And it's a curated experience. That is the same thing that happened just a couple hours prior. There's lots of different ways to engage in. But I do think that we've got to think about, for music, how are we going to engage people? I guess one final thought here is that I think it's okay to go ahead and record all four or five songs that you might do in the room and post those as a separate file on your social media, and while allow people to opt in. So, hey, today in our online worship, we are going to sing, but if you love to worship and song, we've posted the entire song set that we do here in the building so that you can participate.

I think there's actually some extra motivation for those who love to sing, to invite them to the building and say, hey, one of the ways that you get an advantage to coming to the in-person experience is that you experience all of the music rather than just the couple songs that we would do online.

Jeanette:

You've been talking about engaging with both audiences. And I want to talk a little bit more about that, because you mentioned briefly actually speaking to them directly one way to do that. We really want to make sure that they know that they are a part of the worship service. So what are some other ways that churches can better engage with that online audience?

Jason:

Yeah, I think that is the question. If I could get every church to ask that question through the book, I will feel like I have succeeded in my goal. The African American tradition has been doing call and response for a very long time. The people are very active participants in the experience of the sermon. And I think that what is so cool about the time we're living in right now is that everyone can step into that, what I call dialogue. I talk about the move from monologue to dialogue. So part of it is just being intentional about the language that we use and inviting people into that. I talk a lot about the idea of low hanging fruit opportunities. And there are tons of them in front of us if we'll just grab hold of them. One thing that I have been saying to all the churches that I'm coaching right now, because of the book and the way that it's had some success, and I've gotten a lot of attention from United Methodist annual conferences, I'm currently coaching about 175 pastors through 16 cohort calls a month.

So I do an hour with a group of leaders. And so I get lots of good real-time, here's what we've tried. Here's what works. Here's what isn't working and all that. And so, one of my challenges to all of the churches I'm working with right now has been to add to their vocabulary one simple line and that is... Or put it in the chat, because a lot of times we will say things in the room and we don't... If you've got a prayer request, shout it out, or write it on a piece of paper or whatever it is. But just if we remember to say or put it in the chat, that gives people an opportunity to be a part of it. And so when you say something like I've just was worshiping with the church the other day, and the pastor said, "I want you all to say this with me. We are Peter, say we are Peter." And I said, all you've got to say or put in the chat we are Peter. He was making the point that we all are Peter in some ways.

So there's moments like that. There are things where I think we can say, like Easter morning, what's something you're thankful for on this Easter morning? I'm going to just allow you to shout it out. And people will shout it out. What we don't think to do sometimes is to invite them to put it in the chat, but then what if they put it in the chat and we actually have someone designated to give voice to some of those comments in the chat? So I might say we've got a couple great ones here in the chat. Jeanette just said, I am thankful for sunshine. Bryan says that he's thankful for a warm cup of coffee, hot cup of coffee, whatever, when you are worshiping online and you hear your comment spoken, it feels like you're a part of it.

And I believe that hearing a comment like that, doesn't just benefit the person at home, it benefits the room too, because now they feel the presence of two people that they can't see that are worshiping with them. And I think that the story in the room doesn't tell the whole story. When we look around and we see, oh, only 75% of our church's here. Well, maybe the other 25, or maybe even more than you used to have or gathered online, when you give them voice, they get to be a part of it. One more I'll share with you is that I've seen some churches do things with, in the United Methodist tradition. It's not my favorite tradition, quite honestly, but I've seen people use it effectively. They call it joys and concerns. So they say, if you've got a joy share your joys or your concerns. A joy is something you want to celebrate, a concern is a prayer request or whatever.

I was at a church in Savannah last September. And the pastor said, "I want everyone to take out their phones right now. And I'm going to invite you to go to our church's Facebook page, mute your phones. I'm going to invite you to go to our church's web page or Facebook page. And we are going to share our joys and concerns digitally this morning. All of us, even here in the room." Thing is, is we used to just shout them out. But the people at home cannot shout loud enough for us to hear them. And so I would love for us to share those now. And so he would say right here in the room, we've got Joe who's giving thanks for a new grandchild. We are celebrating with you, Joe, that joy. With us on online today is Jane. And Jane is asking for prayer for a friend who is suffering from COVID.

And so in that moment, you feel connected to all these people that you can't see, and they are active participants in the experience of worship. I said, that was the last one, but there's one more that's popped into my head. That's a real low hanging food opportunity. So some of us do the greeting time where we say hello to others. In my tradition, they'll sometimes call it, passing the piece where we offer words of peace to one another, peace of Christ be with you and also with you. And I've seen some churches adapt that practice to say, we're going to wave the peace to each other contactless, but I want to also encourage you to turn around and wave at the camera. Let's wave the piece to those at home today as well. And so they feel like they're a part of it as well. So I just think if we will look at the practices we have in the room that involve participation, it's a pretty simple, add a few more words, to give people at home the opportunity to participate as well.

Bryan:

Yeah, I think that's good. And I think that gives a lot of people, something to think about too. What are some easy ways that I could change my language this Sunday to include people watching online or participating online. So I think that there's a lot that churches could do to better engage their audience. But I'm curious if you have, obviously changing your language is one thing, but is there anything that a church could do for this coming Sunday that could really help them think through this both and mentality and take it to the next level?

Jason:

Sure. A couple of my data tips would be, number one, I think we need to assign greeters to the chat, the way that we have greeters at our front door, so that when people walk into the building, you make them feel welcomed and like they're a part of it. I think you can use the same people. So rather than greet by shaking hands, I want you to greet with your fingers in the chat so that every single person that comes in the chat gets a welcome, gets a greeting. There's a church I work with out of Columbia, South Carolina, called Journey Church. They're my favorite church to talk about and write about. And the other day, or back in February, I was with them.

And they said, if you're a member with us today, put M in the chat, we are glad to have our members with us. If you're a frequent flyer, you're not a member, but you worship with us a lot, put FF in the chat. And if you are a guest with us today, I want to encourage you to put G in the chat because we want to welcome you. And when I saw those Gs go in the chat, all the Ms and FFs started welcoming people left and made them feel, yeah, made them feel like they're part of it. And even acknowledging the chat is there from the stage or from the chance or whatever you call it in the church, in itself is engaging. So I would say that's number one, is to just extend hospitality through the chat interface. You might also give people the opportunity to engage in what I call the dual screen experience.

So some of you are watching on a smart TV at home. You don't see the chat, but I want to encourage you to open up the chat on your phone or another device so that you can fully participate in the worship that we are engaged in today. So that's a pretty simple thing as well. Second thing I would encourage pastors in particular, but I guess all leaders really to do is make eye contact with the camera from time to time. So I encourage pastors to put a camera icon in their notes. You're not preaching to the camera. We're not filming a television show, but I do think that if you occasionally, you look at the people sitting over in the left part of your sanctuary, your worship space, your auditorium, and the right part and the balcony, you've got to look at the camera too, because the camera is a part of your congregation. And then I guess the third thing that I would consider doing right away is to make sure you're doing some follow-up with folks.

There are great opportunities through text in church, you can say text the word new today to this number and it starts a whole follow-up process, or register your attendance today by, there's another resource that I'm a fan of called flow code. Flow code will let you build a form. There's a free version of it. There's a church I'm working with that's about 400 in attendance, and they're just using the free version, F-L-O-W-C-O-D-E. It lets you build a form. You can determine what is required and what's not. And it creates a little QR code that you can put on your screen so that people can scan it and register their attendance. The other challenge I've made to every church I'm working with right now is that in 2022, we've got to work on our discipleship or relational pathway.

What does it look like to have a viewer? Someone started as a viewer and become a member of your church in some way. And one of my favorite stories comes from a pastor in North Carolina who said he had reconnected with a friend in Florida, right before the pandemic. When they went online during the pandemic, this friend in Florida started worshiping with them online regularly. And after a while she started giving offering and then became a tither. So regularly started giving 10% of her income to the church and then started participating in online Bible study. And the pastor said, you are more committed than some of my members who live here in town. You ought to just join our church. And so for the first time ever, they had a membership Sunday where they had three or four people standing up front in a TV with this person taking their membership vows on Zoom. And now she is the leader of their online hospitality team from Florida. She's not moving to North Carolina, but she is fully engaged and she's found ways to serve locally in her area there.

But how can we invite people into deeper relationship with our churches, whether that's online or in the building? So those are some of the tips I would have for just what you can do even before next week. I will say, I think that there is a leveled playing field here, because I think that a church can have a smartphone, intentional language and use the chat and create a really meaningful participatory experience of worship. But I've also seen big churches with four cameras and a dolly and crane and a whole media team create an experience that's more like something I just watch rather than participate in. So you don't have to have a huge budget and have a big staff and be super fancy to create really transcendent, meaningful worship.

Jeanette:

I'm glad that you said that, because a lot of pushback, I hear, well, there's the people that they don't even being online in general. That's a different... But then there's the people that's like, well, what if we just can't do it? What if our tech is not good? We literally only have a cell phone that we can use to record. Is it worth investing? Obviously when you are able to invest in better technology, you could do, but should we go ahead and set up that tripod with the smartphone and create our chat greeters and change our language so it incorporates our online people and all this other stuff that you talked about, even if we have the most basic of technology?

Jason:

Absolutely. I have seen small country churches have enormous impact, that are out in the middle of nowhere. One church in Tennessee that I know of had about 50 in attendance on a regular basis in the building. And they're now reaching 550 every week through their online worship. I know of a church here in my area that I think it's crazy, their impact, they have got two or 3000 people now that are participating through their online worship and they do it in their living room. It's having that kind of reach, that kind of impact. So one of my favorite examples in the training that I shared was what Jimmy Fallon did with the tonight show from home. He has his wife running the camera and his daughters in the shots, and it's a little bit of a mess, but it was some of the most compelling stuff he had ever done. And that's because it was authentic.

So I regularly tell people, authenticity is more important than being slick or perfect. You don't have to have the most incredible equipment. I think it's great if we can get there. I would say every church ought to continue our hybrid worship. We don't have time to get into it, but in the book I talk about 13 reasons why we need to continue. And none of them have anything to do with just somebody sick at home. I think some of us have this idea that the only reason that hybrid should continue is that sometimes people might be sick and need to stay home. There's so many more reasons that we ought to do it. One other thing I'll just mention, and it's one of my favorite points in the book, and it seems to help a lot of people reframe their thinking, is to think about the fact that the church was founded on hybrid ministry. Paul's ministry reflects a hybrid approach.

All throughout Acts he's preaching to the people in-person, and then he begins writing these letters from prison some of them. And Paul is actually instructing the church and preaching to the people through these letters. He regularly says, I long to be with you. I wish we were in person, but since we can't be right now, hear these words. And I've never heard anyone say we shouldn't use Paul's writings because they weren't in-person, they don't count. And sometimes I think we have this mentality online ministry shouldn't count because it's not physically present. And I just want to remind everyone that people online are real people and they really matter, and they really need Jesus and they can really worship if we really take the time and make the effort to make it connect.

Bryan:

That's awesome. Thank you for those words. I think that's really helpful for a lot of people listening today. So I really appreciate it.

Jeanette:

Yeah, Jason, thanks a lot. That was really great.

Jason:

Thank you.

Bryan:

So if someone wants to get ahold of you, find you and ask more questions, obviously we'll link to your book and things in the show notes, but how can someone reach out to you if they want more info on who you are and the ministry that you provide?

Jason:

Sure. Well, my website is midnightoilproductions.com can certainly find me through there. I'm on Facebook a lot. So facebook.com/midnightoilproductions. I'm on Instagram at Midnight Oil PROD, because they run out of characters after a certain amount. And I'm also on Twitter at Midnight Oil PROD. But don't look for me on Twitter because I never tweet.

Bryan:

Awesome. Well thank you again for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it.

Jason:

My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.

Bryan:

Absolutely.

Jason:

Keep up the good work.

Bryan:

Thanks. And thank you for listening today to the podcast. If you haven't already, make sure that you subscribe and share it with a church communicator that you know as well. Like I said a few minutes ago, we will share Jason's link to his book and more in the show notes today. And you can get all of those details on our website at churchjuice.com/podcast.

Jeanette:

The Church Juice Podcast is a listener supported production of ReFrame Ministries, a family of programs designed to help you see your whole life reframed by God's gospel story. Church Juice is produced by Brian Haley, with post production by audio engineer, Nate Morris in Grand Rapids, Michigan. For more information about Church Juice, visit churchjuice.com. For more information on ReFrame Ministries in our family of programs, visit reframeministries.org.