Don’t you love awkward conversations? You know… those talks that are critical to have, but you just cringe at the thought of actually broaching the topic? We’ve all been there. In this episode, Jeanette and Bryan discuss having those potentially divisive or difficult conversations in a gracious way in the church.
Jeanette:
Don't you just love awkward conversations, those talks that are critical to have, but you really just cringe at the thought of actually having it? Well, we've all been there, often. And in this episode, Bryan and I are going to talk about having those potentially divisive or difficult conversations with grace and compassion.
Bryan:
That's right. Hey, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Church Juice Podcast. Whatever your title or role is at your church, this show is created as a way to help give you the communication and marketing tools, resources, and even community, that you need to be successful. My name's Bryan Haley. I'm joined by my cohost, Jeanette Yates. And we are here energizing church communications.
Jeanette:
Yes.
Bryan:
And this is a fun topic.
Jeanette:
Oh, my gosh, you guys.
Bryan:
Not really, but hey.
Jeanette:
When I got the show notes for today, I panicked a little bit, because we're going to be talking about the elephant in the room, and I really thought Bryan was just going to give me a hard time today.
Bryan:
Show you the door?
Jeanette:
Yeah. I thought, "Oh, my gosh. We're going to have a difficult conversation live for our [inaudible 00:01:20]."
Bryan:
Yeah. That would be terrible. That would be a terrible way to have a conversation, so we could start there.
Jeanette:
Although cringe stuff is really popular these days [inaudible 00:01:30].
Bryan:
On, that's true. Can't not look at the crash happening. Yeah.
Jeanette:
But don't worry. We're not going to do that. In fact, instead we're going to break down some tips, some ideas of how you can have those difficult conversations that are, they're necessary.
Bryan:
Right.
Jeanette:
Whether it's in your church work, in your home, wherever, we have to have those. But there's a way to do it that doesn't break apart the relationships that you've built with people. And so, we want to focus on how do we do the difficult work that we're called to do, sometimes that means difficult conversations, and still end up part of the family of God together as we move through?
Bryan:
Yeah. It's important for us to have these conversations and realize that at the end of the day, we are still one body. We are still the body of Christ. We are still one faith family. But often as church leaders, whether you are the front desk receptionist or you're the pastor, there's a lot of expectations and a lot of difficult conversations that need to be had. But sometimes it's hard to know when to have them or how to have them, and I think that's, even in seminary or whatever education you have, a lot of times we don't talk about how to have difficult conversations.
And it comes up in a lot of different ways, in a lot of different scenarios, from dealing with death to dealing with just divisive issues in the church, and there are a ton of those these days. So, I think it's important for us to start off and say that conflict is just not inherently bad. Conflict is okay to have, and that tension is okay to have, but it's how we handle it, and how we deal with it, and how we work through conflict that can either make or break a relationship, a lot of times. That's, I guess, the foundation that I try to start with. Conflict is okay, and it's okay for us to have this conversation, but we need to do it well, and we need to have this conversation well.
Jeanette:
Well, just like there's a difference between having a healthy debate and having an argument.
Bryan:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeanette:
I think too, this is an important topic for us today because a lot of people I know, myself included, conflict averse, shall we say? And over little things, like "I think the dishes should go in the dishwasher like this," instead of me saying, "Well, actually I think." I'm going to go, "Okay, fine, whatever." It's like, fine. So, from the easiest thing, I don't want to have a conflict about it, I'm just going to say, "Fine, whatever. We'll eat wherever you want."
Bryan:
Now, I'm curious though. Does that build up over time or do you just let things go?
Jeanette:
Well, so what happens is, if you're unable, in my case, and I don't know how it is to everybody else, but in my case, I found that the fewer things that I push back on or say, "No, I'm going to load the dishwasher this way," or "No, I really don't like that type of food, can we please stop going," it does build up because it becomes bigger than it needs to be.
Bryan:
Gotcha.
Jeanette:
Whereas if you just say from the beginning, "Actually my name is Jeanette, not Janet," then it's not awkward five years down the road. I'm breaking down to make it less scary. See, I'm already backing off the elephant in the room. I'm like, "It's just a [inaudible 00:05:01], just leave it there."
Bryan:
I feel like my default is between fight or flight, I would be a punch and run. I'll throw something at you, I'll make some snide comment, or say that I really don't like something, or broach the topic, but then I'll run away and avoid it and move on.
Jeanette:
So, you're not fight or flight. You're fight and flight.
Bryan:
Yeah. Probably. But I don't want to actually fight about it. I just want to tell you my thought and then avoid it for the rest of the time.
Jeanette:
Okay.
Bryan:
Anyway, as we talk about conflict, there's a lot of issues that are coming up in churches these days that bring up a lot of different and difficult conversations that need to be had. So, yeah. Let's talk through when we have difficult conversations, when we need to broach the elephant in the room and talk through a difficult decision to be made or something that is potentially hurtful or harmful, how do we start with those conversations? What do we do?
Jeanette:
Well, I love the idea of, because I am, like I just said, I'm a conflict diverse person, but I think one of the things that whenever something like this is coming up in a staff situation, like a church staff situation, or maybe it's in those committee meeting type things. I don't know about your church, but I know my church has as many committees as we do members. I think one thing is to just remember your role in this situation. So, for example, I'm on a committee right now. I am not the chair of the committee. I am a member of the committee. And so, when a conflict, a discussion, shall we say, occurs, it is not my role to try to fix anything. We have a specific protocol in place for that. Which that's another thing, we actually follow a certain-
Bryan:
Like Robert's Rules of Order?
Jeanette:
Yes. I was like, I didn't want to [inaudible 00:07:05]. So, it's not my job, it's the chair's job. Now, if you're the chair of the committee, you need to know your role and responsibility. If you're the person in charge of handling whatever this conflict that's being brought to you is, so maybe it's not a committee, maybe you are sitting at the front desk and someone has something to say to you, you need to know what your role is. And then I think you, I always advocate breathing. It's not on our list today in your notes, but take a deep breath and then approach that, listen to what the person's saying, is what I would say.
Bryan:
I think that when we have difficult conversations, it's important to, like you were just saying, take a breath, slow things down a bit. It's easy for us to be quick to respond, or quick to throw in a comment, or want to rush the conversation too, because everyone's uncomfortable. But when we slow a conversation down, when we take a moment to breathe, when we don't respond to a question right away, but actually take a moment and think about it or just let there be space, slowing the conversation down helps to deescalate the conversation too, so it's not working toward aggravation and toward the climax of whatever argument could happen or could take place. But it deescalates and creates space, and that's a good thing to have.
Jeanette:
Another thing that I do that is really helpful for me in my quest to confront conflict instead of running away from it, is when I feel that feeling that comes up, that fight or flight response kick in, I try to say to myself, "What is really going on here?" And as I'm listening to them, I'm trying to say, "What are they really upset about here," or "What's really going on here?" Or if they're saying something that I'm getting really upset about and I'm listening to them and I'm like, "Why am I getting so upset about what they're saying," maybe it's a me problem and not a. But I think really just using your feelings, using those senses inside you to say, "Okay. I'm getting ready to defend here. I'm getting ready to fight. But before I do, what am I fighting about here? What am I really getting ready to fight about?"
And then I think that sometimes helps us pause a little bit too. But we also have to remember that all of these conversations that we're having with these people within our church are to be handled with grace and trust. So, hopefully these conversations that are happening, these conflicts are happening with people that you know, to some extent in your church, because that's what we're talking about, conflict within this church base.
So, hopefully there is a level of trust that's already there. Go back to that. I know recently there was something going on in my church and a person said something I disagreed with, but I have 20 years of a relationship with this person. They've been a part of my church family for 20 years. I have all of that to go back on, other than this just one conversation that we're having. And so, I think having that community already built up in your church and with individuals within your church helps those conversations, but you do have to pull on that sometimes. Sometimes you have to say, "Wait. This is the same person that has done these things, has been a part of this, has done this," and see them as the whole person, not just the person that's having the conflict with you right that second.
Bryan:
One thing that I found in recent years, especially as leading staff in a church setting, is to be direct and to be clear, it's easy for us, or easier because we don't want to offend. We don't want to hurt people's feelings, and I want people to like me too. So, having these conversations can be difficult. So, I found that, especially in difficult conversations, that can be hard to hear for the person on the other end. It's important for me to be direct, and to be clear, and to be concise. So, I don't beat around the bush. I'm going to tell you, "Hey, this is the issue. This is what we're talking about," but I'm also going to ask questions because I want to hear from their perspective. What am I not seeing? What am I not experiencing? Because that's important too. We come in with our experience and our perceptions and all of that, but there's another side to the story.
So, it's important to listen to that, like you were saying, and draw on those relationships that you have, and then be clear about where we're going. But I think there's also an element of being flexible too. I can walk into a situation and say, "This is what you're doing wrong, and this is what I expect to change," but when I listen and I'm flexible, I can have a better understanding and we can probably come to a better agreement that's going to have better results because they're now part of that decision too.
Jeanette:
Yeah. I think a lot of times people just want to be heard.
Bryan:
Yeah.
Jeanette:
And so, listening, asking questions. If they're telling something that they're upset about and they expect you to fix it, if they're asking for solutions, you can say, and going back to that first thing we talked about, knowing your role, "I can help you find a way to get this answer. I cannot fix this. Whatever I can help you figure out," or "We can't do that right now. We can't redo the floors in that building, but we can do this." Come up with options like you were just saying, be flexible. Another thing I was thinking about is you were talking about we don't want to hurt people's feelings. And especially in the church, kindness is part of the fruit of the Spirit, so how can we say no, or not yet, or I disagree? Is that contrary to kindness?
And one of the books that I read, and this is a while ago, it's one of Henry Cloud's books. He wrote the boundaries books. He wrote a book called Necessary Endings. And of course, we're not talking about breaking a relationship today, but he was talking about part of firing people or ending a relationship or something is having that difficult conversation. And a lot of times we don't want to have it because of that whole, we don't want to hurt people's feelings. But he said, "Sometimes you will hurt someone's feelings. Your goal is not always to not hurt their feelings, it's to not harm them." So, know the difference between someone's hurt feelings and actually harming someone emotionally. And so, you want to try to balance that out. I'll try to find the exact quote from that book, but he did distinguish between hurt feelings and harming someone.
Bryan:
Yeah. That's interesting.
Jeanette:
So, and one of the things I know in my own journey of life is my feelings may get hurt, so I'm now the person receiving the reply back from the hard conversation. That's an opportunity for me to examine why my feelings are hurt, but also that feeling will pass.
Bryan:
Yeah.
Jeanette:
The relationship that you have with that person, you still want to maintain that. So, hurting someone's feelings shouldn't harm the relationship irreparably.
Bryan:
Yeah. I mean, I think we've talked a lot today about different scenarios in approaching tough conversations, and it's good to have. There's also a couple things that I just want to touch on just real briefly, that I think a lot of communicators interact with or deal with pretty commonly that are not divisive, but they are difficult to deal with sometimes. So, one of them is, I would call them, well, let's just say online trolls. Okay.
Jeanette:
Right.
Bryan:
So, the people that if you have an ad campaign on Facebook, they're making comments about how, I don't know, about how God isn't real or different things, or causing a stir in your posts and things like that. But there's also the people that come to the church communicator or the church leader who either have a passion project, and so they want the church to put all their resources into their little project, even though it has nothing to do with the church or our mission, or they always have something that is an issue. "I'm always upset because, I don't know, I don't get the email the right way, or I don't like the way this looks." So, when we're dealing with those kinds of conversations, I don't know, what do you suggest? What do you say?
Jeanette:
Okay. So, the online troll thing, there's a couple different things. This is just real quick. What we're talking about is people that are not associated with your church at all. They may or may not even live in your community. We get these all the time, and you can tell this person is putting something on there. You can just hide those. If you hide them, that person still will see it, but nobody else will. Just hide it. It's not a big deal.
Bryan:
Right.
Jeanette:
I think you can also block people, but I can't remember. Facebook changes what you're allowed to do so often, but you want to reserve that block for if just something's really egregious, but you can definitely just hide weird comments that make no sense. But then every now and then there's a comment of from someone that's in your community, whether they're a member of your church, or an attendee, or know someone, or relative or whatever, and if possible, you want to respond with grace. Now, my friend Seth Muse, who has worked in the church base a lot, one of the things he suggest is moving it out of the comments as quickly as possible.
We're sorry you feel this way, or we'd love to discuss this with you further or connect you with a pastor, please DM us. And then move it off. And sometimes they will actually reach out to you or you can reach out to them in a DM and say, "Hey, we'd love to continue this conversation here." And then again, hide that comment. Get rid of it, whatever, but try to move it off the main feed that everybody sees, if there is a conversation to be had. A lot of times those things are going to just be, they're not trying to start a conversation. They're just saying something into the void. But if someone is really wanting prayer or wanting to know more about this or seems to be hurt, you want to handle that with a little bit of grace. And then again, like I said, pull it offline, pull it off the main feed.
Bryan:
Yeah.
Jeanette:
Now, my favorite thing to talk about is the squeaky wheels. I love them. Listen. Those squeaky wheels, a lot of times, are your most staunch members of the church. They are there every Sunday and they just want you to do the thing that has always been done, or whatever. And I think I've talked about this in several episodes. I've probably even written a blog post for Church Juice on this. You don't have to say no to them. You can say they're coming to you and saying, "I want you to promote this."
Well, you don't have to say, "No. We are not promoting that." What you can say is, "Let me take a look at this and I will let you know, I will create a marketing plan just for you, just for this event." And now that marketing plan may mean you make 10 invitations for them to personally hand out to their 10 friends that are going to come to this event. That may be your marketing plan. But the fact that you took the time to do that, let them know, "Oh, my marketing plan is specifically made for me." It is. I'm marketing this event to the China Painting Club, to the people that actually want to paint China, and that's 10 people, and here are your invitations." See what I'm saying?
Bryan:
Yeah. I gotcha.
Jeanette:
Okay. Now, if somebody comes to you and says, "I am sick and tired of my email going into my spam. Why do you send the church email to my spam folder?" You can do is take five minutes and tell them some of the things that we all know. If you use Google email, you can even pull up your email and say, "If it ends up over here, all you have to do is click here," and you can just show them how to do it. Just take a few minutes and do it. They're going to appreciate the time and you're going to educate them and probably save a lot of other people the hassle of having to do the same thing.
So, just take a few minutes. And if they're complaining that the toilet is running, chances are, although if that is part of your job, my heart goes out to your church communicator. But chances are you can say, "Fill out this form. I'll give it to Joe. He's going to take care of the toilet." You don't have to deal with that.
Bryan:
I think that there are a lot of situations when someone comes to us in the church office, whatever your role is, they feel like they can come to you. That's also an opportunity for you to develop that relationship. So, I think talking through, or thinking through some of the things that we talked about in this episode might be helpful in those situations. So, just like you were talking about with the toilet, know where your responsibilities lie. If it's not your responsibility, make sure you connect them with the right person. Approach that conversation. Know that when they're walking in, you need to take a deep breath, probably. You need to listen to what they're saying, and you need to listen well and hear them out. But the more that you get to know them, the more that you deepen that relationship with them, know what they're passionate about, they're passionate about the church because they're, they're coming to you about these issues.
But what else are they passionate about? Where can you win them over in other areas too? And if you do need to say no, maybe they're asking you for, the China Painting Club or whatever is happening this Saturday, and it's also Christmas happening on Friday, whatever, and you just don't have the time and you actually have to say no, building that relationship, deepening that relationship and being able to say no, but, I think is important too. So, I think there's a lot of areas for us to grow, I think in communications with relationships. Because historically we've been a lot of the design team or a service to the church ministry itself, rather than actually a ministry. So, it's time for us to change that mentality a little bit and realize that relationships are vital.
That is part of the job of a communicator. And so, we need to have difficult conversations from time to time. We need to develop relationships with people, and we need to be okay with that and work that into our regular role.
Well, thank you for listening to the Church Juice Podcast. If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe wherever you are listening today. It would also mean a lot if you took the time today and leave us a review. That would help other church leaders find the podcast so we can continue to serve and support churches by energizing communications. By the way, we will continue today's discussion in our Facebook group. And if you haven't already, you can join that group by going to churchjuice.com/podcast where you will also find the show notes for today's episode.
Jeanette:
The Church Juice Podcast is a listener supported production by Reframe Ministries, a family of programs designed to help you see your whole life reframed by God's gospel story. Church Juice is produced by Bryan Haley, with Postproduction by Minimal Media Company in Grand Rapids, Michigan. For more information about Church Juice, visit churchjuice.com. For information on Reframe Ministries and our family of programs, visit reframeministries.org.